Discussions about Chanting Hare Krishna and other faiths.

This is copied from FB. Myself discussing on my post, with three other devotees.
Hope all devotees will like this discussion. It is not the purpose of this discussion to malign or blaspheme anybody or any faith.
However, in order to accept the Truth, one must reject that which is unfavorable to the Truth. Sankara's Mayavad, Patanjali's Yoga, Tantra, Shakta, Shaiva, Islam, Christian , Buddhist , Jain and other philosophies of the world do not stand any chance in front of Krishna bhakti.
It is also noteworthy, how much respect a Krishna devotee gives even to so many different faiths that are averse to Bhakti. This is something for our fellow Muslims / Christians to learn from the bhaktas. The best result would of course be that they give up their misconceptions on faith and surrender to Krishna exclusively.

Discussion :

Myself : One whose heart has been attracted by the chanting of the Holy Names of Krishna doesn't care for any mundane paths or philosophies, whether it is Patanjali's Yoga, Sankara's Mayavad, Muhammad's Islam or Christianity. If someone is still attracted to any of those philosophies, it shows that they are yet to achieve firmness (nistha) in chanting.

First Devotee : Is this your statement Prabhu? Yes Attraction shouldnt be for any other philosophies when we know Vaisnavism is the highest full-fledged theism and our goal is highest. But 'original' Christianity and Islam philosophies are not mundane. As Srila Guru Maharaj said both these philosophies give hazy concepts about our relationships with God. As Prophet Mohammed gave the concept of däsya-bhakti and Christ gave the concept of our relation with God as father and son. Also Christ said we must love God and all living beings. Still, its hazy becoz there is no method or process or practice. Although, their concept is not full-fledged, its respectful we cant disrespect them.

Myself : I will find the exact quote in Bengali and translate it (from Shikshastakam).
The reason why we are asked not to disrespect is due to the fact that all philosophies come directly or indirectly from Krishna.
Like in Muhammad's Islam, we may say "dasya" bhakti is there, but whether it is bhakti or brahma-realization : that is debatable. Islam doesn't have a personal form of God , so dasya to Lord Vishnu and dasya to Allah are very radically different.
When something is not related to pure Krishna bhakti, we call it mundane. Dasya is preached by Shrila Ramanuja, vatsalya is preached in VishnuSwami's sampradaya.
Although we might consider Islam to be a form of dasya, it is actually dasya to whom ? That is the question.
Even some Devi worshippers claim to be servants of God.

However, some view points may be different and let us agree to disagree. Hare Krishna.
I find Islam is closer to Sankara's mayavad (Sufi's there practice a form of Oneness with Allah).
In Christianity too, we don't find there is a place for all living beings, although love is preached for human beings.
If dasya or vatsalya rasas were so easy, then we wouldn't have such a great devotee as Hanuman ji seeking dasya.
"alpa kare na maniho Krishna dasa naam, alpa bhagye dasa nahi karena bhagavan." (Chaitanya Bhagavat).
We follow and respect the four vaishnav sampraday acharyas, namely Kumara, Brahma, Rudra and Shri sampradays.
Hazy conceptions are present elsewhere, but generally we don't care for those.
Sometimes our Acharyas may quote even from Gandhi or Rabindranath Tagore or Ramkrishna, but that doesn't mean we follow those ideas or philosophy.
Whatever is present in the world, good or bad , comes from Krishna only.
"sarva dharman parityajya, mam ekam sharanam vraja."
Give up all forms of religion and surrender to Me Alone.
So whether it is devi-devata worship of karma-kandis, yoga of Patanjali or other Rishis, Sankhya, Mazhab of Muslims or Religion of Christians, etc.. all conceptions must be given up in favor of surrender to the Absolute One : Krishna.
When we say "hazy" conception, we must understand what makes the conception hazy in the first place ? What is "haze"?
Haze means Maya, nothing else.There cannot be any haze in the presence of Krishna.
"Krishna surya sama, Maya hoy andhakar, yahan Krishna, tahan nahi mayar adhikar."
So if a hazy conception is there. it can lead to Brahman-realization at most , but never to Krishna.
Brahman-realization can mature to shanta rasa, for some advanced practitioners.
Dasya Rasa is way ahead.

Second Devotee : Dandavats Prabhu, I like your exclusive point of view. Perhaps this may help harmonize, please consider. This is from the introduction of Sri Krsna Samhita by Srila Bhakti Vinod Thakura. I love this book. I was very surprised when I first read this. He is always so generous to the fallen souls of the west.

"If we go through the histories of these five rasas, it is clearly believed that shanta-rasa was seen in the beginning days of India. When the soul was not satisfied after performing sacrifices with material ingredients, then transcendentalists like Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanat-kumara, Sananda, Narada, and Mahadeva all became detached from the material world, situated in transcendence, and realized shanta-rasa. Much later, dasya-rasa manifested in Hanuman, the leader of the monkeys. That dasya-rasa gradually expanded to the northwest and manifested in a great personality named Moses. Long after Hanuman, the leader of the monkeys, Uddhava and Arjuna became the qualified authorities of sakhya-rasa. They preached about this rasa throughout the world. Gradually that rasa expanded up to the Arabian countries and touched the heart of Mohammed, the knower of religious principles. Vatsalya-rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles. Madhurya-rasa first shone brightly in Vraja. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. Navadvipa-candra, Shri Shaci-kumara, preached this secret rasa along with His followers. This rasa has not crossed beyond India as yet." Srila Bhakti Vinod Thakura.

http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Bhaktivinoda_Thakura/Krishna_Samhita.htm here is a link to an online english version.

Myself : I have read this Prabhu ji. If you read another book by Shrila Bhakti Vinod Thakura, you will find that a very different view of Christian idea of salvation is presented there.
In other words, Jaiva Dharma should be taken as the ultimate authority in such matters.
Sage Ved Vyasa also composed lots of scriptures, but we take Shrimad Bhagvatam as the ultimate authority,
Similarly, from Shrila Bhakti Vinod Thakura, we should take Jaiva Dharma.
I would question how dasya or sakhya rasa could show in Mohammad's Allah ? What is the form of Allah ? How can rasa appear for an impersonal form of God ?
Similarly , for vatsalya rasa of Jesus, there must be a form of God. What is the form of God / who are the ragatmikas of the rasa ?
Without ragatmikas (eternal associates in a particular rasa), how can rasa be present in a relationship with God ?

Dasya Rasa is present in vaikunth, where Lord Narayan is present with Lakshmi Devi and other Shaktis.
Dasya rasa is also present in Ayodhya, where Lord Rama is present with Sita, as also with His eternal parents, Dashrath, Kausalya etc.
Who are the parents of Allah ? Who are the friends of Allah ? It is not clear. So without any such eternally present associates, how can a jeeva worship in that mode ?
Hope you are getting the point.
Thank you for such a good discussion anyway.
First of all, we must understand why "rasa" is present . It is eternal, it is not created by us. Eternal associates are present with God, serving in different rasas.
Such elevated conceptions are not found in any of the texts outside vaishnav texts, what to speak of Quran or the Bible.
Without rasa, the maximum realization can be one of Impersonal Form of God .
Please try to understand this point. It is very important to understand this.
In Muhammad' s theory, the highest achievement was some award like heavenly life. Where is the idea of service to Allah ? It is there till a point where one has qualified oneself for heaven !
Seeking eternal heaven is never bhakti. It can be quite the opposite.

First Devotee : I only said they gave those concepts between our relation with God,not devotional process. They acted like messengers of God n gave what was needed in their particular time. So why should be orthodox n disrespect? Even Caitanya Mahäprabhu didnt do that in case of chand Kazi. He respectfuly talked with him converted him into Vaisnava. If we would be orthodox vaisnava, there would be no chance for any muslim or christian to hear about vaisnavism and accept it. But anyway, its so clear that they have hazy conception wich means 'unclear' and Guru maharaj cleared that in his book 'Search for Sri Krishna' in the chapter 'beyond christianity' page no. 91

Myself : For any "rasa" to be present, there must be some "original/eternal" associates in that particular rasa.
Even the Form of God is not discussed in Islam or Christianity. God is discussed only in relation to the material universe, as a Creator. So the maximum achievement can be liberation from cycle of birth and death.One who knows God as the Creator can get liberation, but that too needs Brahman-realization. For Brahman-realization, one must be compassionate to all jeevas.
"So why should be orthodox n disrespect?"
I did never disrespect. But I seriously consider it incorrect to compare anything to "rasa" in Krishna bhakti.
Even a lot of smartas has very good idea about God, they have hazy ideas. We don't ever show the slightest regard for their concepts, but we don't disrespect them either.
Mahaprabhu said very clearly to Chand Kazi the Truth, you can please check in Chaitanya Charitamrita.
My only point is : We do not even accept Kabir or Nanak for their Impersonal concepts, we do not accept any non-parampara vaishnavs even.
Then why we have to show special leniency to Islam or Christianity ? It may be politically correct but not necessarily required to do so.
An apasampraday remains an apasampraday.
If Muhammad preached love of Godhead,how come his followers massacred 13000 Shri Vaishnavs in Shrirangam ? 50000 or more in Mathura ?
It sounds somewhat mysterious to me. Hare Krishna.

And if you read the personal life anecdotes of "Acharya" Muhammad, you will wonder how he can even be regarded as an Acharya. Isn't Acharya one who teaches by example ?
He is not required to kill his opponents in order to preach.
So where is the bhakti ? Where is the "trinadapi suneech" and "tarorapi sahisnu" approach ?
Haribol.

If something is not transcendental, it must be mundane.
Transcendental subjects cannot be preached using the sword.
It is not possible that we accept the teachings but reject the Acharya : that will be "ardh-kukkuti -nyaya."
So we have to accept that Muhammad said "There is Allah" and "All must surrender to Him Alone." So he and his devotees set out to implement "Allah's will."
We do not find such a weird example anywhere, not even Kabir, not even Nanak preached like that. Their purity attracted followers, nobody was ever forced to follow.
Please do not take any offenses. I have tried to share whatever little I have realized.

First Devotee : how would we know what they gave if we havent read their holy books Qorän or even Bible? On this point, i think we should follow an authorised person who has that position to speak:our Guru. And the introduction of Krishna samhita speaks everything. I think we must not try to understand this point with our mental speculation but only accept what an authorised person or the Lord Caitanya has given.

Myself : My approach isn't exclusive. Rather I want to expose those ideas that are exclusive. Even such theories as Tantra, Shakta, Shaivism, Yoga, Jnana, Buddhism are not exclusive.
Even those carry some hazy conception of Godhead and our relationship with Godhead. We must not underestimate those spiritual practitioners who follow those paths, just that their Acharyas never picked the sword to make others follow.
Ask a Shakta : "Does a Buddhist go to hell ?"
He will tell you : It depends upon his karma.
Ask a Buddhist :"Does a Shakta (Hindu) go to hell?"
He will reply the same way.
Now ask the highest practitioner of Islam (or Christianity) about the fate of the most respected "Hindu" saint.
He will tell you that anybody who hasn't surrendered to Islam will go to hell.
So that is exclusive idea.
Please do not take offense.
Forgive any offenses.
No more discussion on it please. Hare Krishna.
It is not speculation. Please read Chand Kazi and Mahaprabhu's samvad once again.
It is possible that on this point we have different view points. Realizations may be different on some points.
I have consulted my Guru varga and don't have the slightest doubt on this point (about sanatan -jaiva dharma versus non-sanatan dharma).

First Devotee: No prabhu there is no point to take any offence.

Myself : hare krishna, hare krishna, krishna krishna hare hare| hare rama, hare rama, rama rama hare hare.
"harer naam harer naam harer naamaiva kevalam.
kalau nastyaiva, nastyaiva nastyaiva gatiranyatha."
Thank you so much.

First Devotee : Hare Krishna Prabhu. Honestly,sometimes i cant understand others point of view. This makes some difficulty for me. Thanks for the post and comments that taught me something new. Hare Krsna.

Myself : Dandvat Pranam Prabhu.
Discussions must be without fear. It doesn't generate any offense to discuss. Offense occurs if we are malicious to someone's devotional sentiment. Not otherwise.
@(Second Devotee) Prabhu, it is mentioned in Shrila Bhakti Vinod Thakur's book that you mentioned : One can reach to Viraja and perhaps to Brahmaloka by following one of the paths : It may be Christianity/Islam/Buddhism/Jainism/Shakta etc.

However, devotional service is something much beyond that.
(I am not saying those who are not following this or that go to hell. NO, Never. They can attain higher or lower planets, get dharma-artha-kaam and sometimes even moksha.)
hare krishna.

First Devotee : Dandavats ..

Myself : Discussions must be full of energy , we must discuss otherwise how can we share our view points.
From Shrila Sridhar Maharaj's commentary on Shikshastak (Published by :SCS Math, Nabadwip)
"eitai Krishna-cetanar svabhav. kono kichhui taar sange palla dite pare na.se tathakathit dev-devi pujai hok, athava Christian, Islam dharma-dharanai hok : sabai mon theke chale jaya.Astikatar aar yata sab chinta chetana aachhe, sabai Krishna-chetanar kachhe haar mene paliye jaya. Krishna-er saundarya o madhuryer kachhe ke-o-i dandate pare na."

Translation : This is the nature of Krishna consciousness.Nothing, nothing at all can compare to it. Whether it is so called dev-devi worship or Christianity , Islamic religiosity : all those leave the mind . All the theistic thoughts / concepts accept defeat in front of Krishna consciousness and run away.None (of those theistic thoughts) can stand near the beauty and sweetness of Krishna.

Second Devotee : My dandavats Prabhus! I am blessed to find such friendly association and intellegent Hari Katha... bhajahu re mana, sri-nanda-nandana, abhaya-charanaravinda re... Nitai Gauranga!

Third Devotee : Gauranga!!!!
I have gone through full discussion..Its wonderful.. so well framed .. so well said... My Dandwats to all the Prabhus .. who have participated in it.. Hare Krishna to all. All of you have enhanced my knowledge about the subject matter.. Thanks a lot..
Radhe Radhe...